Following is a thread started when I viewed the "MUST WATCH VIDEO" Forwarded by Judith & Ron
"Subject: FW: THE MUST WATCH VIDEO OF THE DAY - Islamic rapid expansion. It is coming – and SOON! Please pass on – our nation is at stake, and our children and grandchildren will be forced to live in a world dominated by Sharia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU"
Response by Joe Rittenhouse 5/8/09:
There’s a slight flaw to the reasoning behind this video. Muslims are people who follow the Islamic religion, not a subversive race. What happens if 2.11 of the 8.1 offspring of the Muslim families are converted and become; Catholic, and another 2.11 of said offspring become atheists and another 2.11 become Jewish. Now Europe is infested with Catholics, Jews, and Atheists. You
nolonger have a sustainable Islamic population.
Let’s carry this illogic a step further and determine what the birth rate is in Mexicans. There will be no more Mexican Americans, just Mexicans or perhaps worse yet: Catholics? I wonder what the birth rate in black Africans is. Opps I forgot: it doesn’t matter, we formulated Aids to solve that quandry.
Islam is not the most populous religion in the world. Its beliefs are very similar to Judaism without the six hundred plus laws. Has the movie maker forgotten? Islam would be number one if the Christians hadn’t slaughtered or been slaughtered by them betweem 1080 to 1300ad.
1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.5 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
This was an interesting presentation. I wonder if Hitler started his hate campaign in a similar fashion?
These e-mails are counterproductive.
Joe
Response by Bill Gracy 5/9/09:
"Hi Joe, This is Bill Gracy, assistant organizer for the upcoming Tea Party on July 3rd. Hope you can be there.
I do have to take exception with your response to the video about Islamic Expansion.
First, I reject your premise that Muslims are simply "people who follow the Islamic religion, not a subversive race". After living in the Middle East for 3 years, I have some knowledge of what the modern day Muslim is all about.
To describe it as you have ignores the differences between Islam and ANY other religion in the world. Islam is the ONLY religion in which, if you convert FROM Islam to another religion, they feel the need to hunt you down and kill you (usually by beheading) to save you from yourself. That doesn't really sound like a nice bunch of people to me! How about murdering innocent women & children by suicide bombings, in the name of Allah.
As for the reason behind the Crusades, you should know that Mohammad (PBUH) and his buddies went around the Middle East, Asia and Southern Europe violently "converting" non-believers to Islam. Heavy on the "violently" part. Sounds more like gang members in LA or South Chicago.
As for "Islam is not the most populous religion in the world and its beliefs are very similar to Judaism without the six hundred plus laws"; the only thing the Muslims and Jews have in common is--they don't eat bacon!
It has been stated in countries like Sweden, that the Muslims want to gain the population advantage so they can turn Sweden into the "Islamic Republic of Sweden"!
From personal experience, and conversations with my Muslim friends, the real problem with Islam is that they can not separate their religion from their governments. Sharia Law is intolerant of dissenting points of view. The British and, to an extent, the French have allowed portions of their nations to be ruled under Sharia Law, effectively turning these areas into Islamic Theocracies. They allow Islam to usurp the rule of their own national laws. The video attempts to educate people about how this will all end
One of my Muslim friends from Pakistan said that because of the intertwining of Islam and government, NO DISSENT IS POSSIBLE! Islam IS the government and the government IS Islam. Sharia (Islamic) Law rules and NO ONE GETS TO CHANGE IT except the Ayatollahs! And no other political view is allowed that does not conform to Sharia Law!
My friend is unable to offer any other points of view, period. It would be like going to Church on Sunday and having an open debate with the pastor as to the meaning of the Bible passages instead of just listening to his (or her) sermon. And if you decided to leave the Church and go to one down the street that you prefer, the deacons would hunt you down and behead you.
But good old Muslims (the non-subversive race) feel that it is necessary to murder their own daughters if they are raped, instead of hunting down the rapists and punishing them! Doesn't sound fair to me? How about Mohammad's six year old wife?
How about murdering daughters who dare to venture out into public without a male (of the family) escort, because they "brought dishonor to the family"?
Muslims around the world are like liberals in this country--tolerance (and Freedom of Speech) goes only one way--THEIR WAY! They demand tolerance OF them and their ideas while being TOTALLY INTOLERANT of ANY other viewpoint!
THAT is NOT my idea of non-subversive, but rather of Totalitarianism!
I've lived in Europe over 7 seven years and the Middle East for 3 years. It IS happening over there NOW! The video isn't some scare tactic or fairy tale, it IS TRUE!
Bill Gracy"
Response by Joe Rittenhouse 5/10/09:
"Thank you so much for your response. It is thought provoking.
Firstly, it is not my premise, it is fact that; "Muslims are people who follow the Islamic religion, not a subversive race". By definition: in "Arabic muslim, literally, one who submits (to God)" Webster: "an adherent of Islam" therefore Muslims are not a race but a religious sect, cult, etc. and can be Black, white, European, Oriental, etc.
Secondly: Your comment; “ignores the differences between Islam and ANY other religion in the world. Islam is the ONLY religion in which, if you convert FROM Islam to another religion, they feel the need to hunt you down and kill you” may be in error?
I quote from:
King James Version of the bible; Deuteronomy 13: 6-10
“6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.”
And from:
Qur'an, 2:61
Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Perhaps Christians and Jews don’t take their bible seriously, or perhaps Jimmy Jones and David Koresh were the only true Christians???
Another quote demonstrating the radical Muslim beliefs:"If anyone harms (others), God will harm him, and if anyone shows hostility to others, God will show hostility to him." Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1625.
As for your comments on the Crusades; that’s a study in three hundred years of history. I have excerpted a couple of quotes from a synopsis of that history with the URL to the text following.
“But the most significant change affecting the Crusades was the revival of the Islamic spirit, almost dead at the time of the First Crusade, which awoke as it became apparent that Islam faced a long-term threat."
"The papal right to launch a crusade was undoubted, but failure in the Holy Land, manipulation of crusading for papal interests in Italy, and the problems of the papacy in the 14th century, undermined the whole movement. The Crusades ultimately failed in their primary theatre, the Middle East, but their history illustrates the remarkable durability and adaptability of European military methods.
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-crusades-1
Regarding your thoughts on my comparison of Islam and Judaism, your comment: “the only thing the Muslims and Jews have in common is--they don't eat bacon!” isn’t supported by fact.
"The historical interaction of Judaism and Islam started in the 7th century AD with the origin and spread of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. Because Judaism and Islam share a common origin in the Middle East through Abraham, both are considered Abrahamic religions. There are many shared aspects between Judaism and Islam: Islam is similar to Judaism in its fundamental religious outlook, structure, jurisprudence and practice.[1] Because of this, as well as through the influence of Muslim culture and philosophy on practitioners of Judaism within the Islamic world, there has been considerable and continued physical, theological, and political overlap between the two faiths in the subsequent 1,400 years."
Excerpted from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism
.
It’s my opinion that the misinterpretation of the; King James Version of the bible, and the Qur’an, by radical Muslims, who are not representative of the Islamic religion, is the direct cause of the problem. When you embellish this with the imagination of the American Media the problem gets blown out of proportion. I have included a couple more definitions for those who don’t have time to look them up. Please note the reference to rules which prohibit the killing of women, children, and non-combatants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Greater_Jihad
Greater Jihad:
jihad", prioritizing it over physical fighting in defense of the Ummah, or members of the global Islamic community.[8] One famous hadith has the prophet saying: "We have returned from the lesser jihad (battle) to the greater jih“Within Islamic belief, Muhammad is said to have regarded the inner struggle for faith the "greater ad (jihad of the soul)."[9] Muslim scholar Mahmoud Ayoub states that "The goal of true jihad is to attain a harmony between islam (submission), iman (faith), and ihsan (righteous living)."[10] Greater jihad can be compared to the struggle that Christians refer to as "resisting sin", i.e. fighting temptation, doubt, disbelief, or detraction. The greater jihad is about holding fast against any ideas and practices that run contrary to the Muhammad's revelations (Qur'an), sayings (Hadith) and the examples set by how he lived his life (Sunnah). This concept of jihad has does not correspond to any military action."
Lesser Jihad (Jihad bil Saif)
“Within Islamic jurisprudence jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may be declared against apostates, rebels, highway robbers, violent groups, non-Islamic leaders or non-Muslim combatants, but there are other ways to perform jihad as well, including civil disobedience. The primary aim of jihad as warfare is not the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam by force, but rather the expansion and
defense of the Islamic state.[5][6][14]”In the classical manuals of Islamic jurisprudence, the rules associated with armed warfare are covered at great length.[14] Such rules include not killing women, children and non-combatants, as well as not damaging cultivated or residential areas.[15] More recently, modern Muslims have tried to re-interpret the Islamic sources, stressing that Jihad is essentially defensive warfare aimed at protecting Muslims and Islam.[14] Although some Islamic scholars have differed on the implementation
of Jihad, there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression.[16]"
I won’t bore you with an enumeration of my travels or experiences. I will ask that you consider the thoughts of a; citizen of Zurich, or a farmer from the Montafon Valley after they return home from a visit to the United States. What would they think if their visit had been restricted to; Hough Avenue, Cabrini Green, and Watts? My point: there are radicals everywhere and they are still a significant minority. Let’s attack and defeat the politicians: by my definition; radical misrepresentatives of the American people. Let’s leave religious freedom to the individuals.
Now aren’t you sorry you provoked my thoughts? Thanks again.
Joe
Response by Bill Gracy 5/11/09:
Hi Joe,
The main point I'm trying to make is that the "modern day" Muslim is THE REALITY. I don't care what it says in the Qur'an OR the Old Testament, I'm dealing with the reality of NOW. Jews and Muslims both avoid pork, other than that they are at continual war with one another. That IS the reality of NOW.
The video showed what IS the reality of Muslim actions around the world and what can be expected from those actions. It is no secret that they wish to impose their religion on others. They also know that by using the largesse of the host nations, they can easily work their way into a position of the majority by generating far more 'future voters' than the average Western Culture is generating for itself. The Muslims never bought into the World is Overpopulated hysteria that Western Civilization did. In two short generations, the Western World dropped birth rates dramatically, from as high as 4.5 in Spain in the 1960's to a quarter of that now.
Worse yet, the need for workers that followed, combined with that low birth rate IS resulting in the collapse of many non-Muslim cultures. The Muslims have NO DESIRE TO ASSIMILATE INTO THEIR HOST CULTURES. Look at the Muslims in the Detroit area. They move in, they bring their culture with them and they wall themselves off physically and culturally from American Culture. Then when their buddies from Saudi Arabia destroy the World Trade Center, they couldn't care less!
From Sweden, to the Netherlands, to Spain, Muslim immigrants are physically taking over Western Europe.
That is what the video depicts.
Sure radicals everywhere, and even though they are a minority, Muslim Radicals far outnumber any such radicals elsewhere. Not only that, they make up the vast MAJORITY of terrorism suspects (oops, "man-caused" disasters according to the Obama administration) around the world.
Open borders and illegal immigration fosters attacks from without, while the politicians from John McCain to Barack Obama foster attacks on our culture from within by refusing to control our borders from blatant illegal immigration.
Those are my thoughts.
Bil
Response by Joe Rittenhouse 5/12/09:
Bill,
It occurs to me that this isn't a debate over Islam and once again I must thank you for inspiring me to attempt the painful task of thinking.
As I reflect on my younger years, I recall the media's perpetual reminders of the threat posed by the communists, more specifically the Russians. Now: I wonder what purpose it served? Likewise: I wonder what purpose the alleged Muslim threat serves. My imagination conjures up all kinds of paranoid answers. The most prevalent seems to be; the gain, by the body politic in keeping it's followers off balance and at odds with each other. The motive; to give said body the opportunity to look good in their efforts to defeat the imaginary foe, thereby gaining favor (votes). It's a ploy older than all of us. THEY pit the Blacks, against the Whites, the rich against the poor, the Americans against the illegal aliens, and THEY are still using the American Indians. We fall for it and it works every time. We were brainwashed to hate Bush and the Republicans and we marched right to the poles and elected a bunch of "Bleeding Heart Liberals" out of spite. The result will be; the politicians grow stronger, richer, and we loose more freedom!
THE REALITY" is that "NOW" is no different than, when the Romans used Christ as a political scapegoat. As long as THEY can play us like well tuned guitars we loose. The truth is; there are one and a half billion (1,500,000,000) Muslims in a world of almost seven billion 6,790,062,216 (July 2009 est.) people. Most of them are just trying to survive and get enough to eat. The poor and indigent of the United States of America eat better and demand more than most of the rest of the worlds population. Our middle class is rich by comparison. THEY remind us frequently so that we will feel guilty and THEY can placate us by giving lip service to how much THEY are doing for the poor and infirm of the world while THEY spend more on fine hotels and expensive restaurants then we make in a year.
We have problems and most of them are the result of our own gullibility and unwillingness to take on the responsibility our forefathers assumed naturally in order to eat and stay alive. Will it take another world war or another "REAL" depression for America to buckle down and return to its position of world leadership, or will we follow the path of all the other great world powers and just fade away into slovenly socialism?
Leaders don't look back to see who is following, they just pursue their paths. They don't blame others for their errors, they correct them. They don't participate in the petty bickering of their neighbors, they move on toward perfection. Jesus didn't drag anybody with him. Mohamed didn't force anybody to follow. Einstein just went his way and the rest of us are still trying to catch up.
An aside: in response to "Look at the Muslims in the Detroit area". I reflect on my youth and the Polish population of Parma, Ohio. They may still retain their old world customs and language today. Have you been to "Little Itally"?
Have a great day and thanks for your thoughts.
Joe
